"The Left" and the minority rule in the West

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Clayton
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Re: "The Left" and the minority rule in the West

Post by Clayton » Sun May 13, 2018 6:56 pm

Mapping "isms" is a waste of time. The genesis of ideas is strictly a function of the individual mind. Of course, new ideas spread and the scientific study of the spread of ideas in society is called memetics. Low-dimensional graphs of the space of ideas are useless over-simplifications and never amount to anything more than system-building. I think that AI is going to help us study ideas with a more scientific approach in the future because AI can bridge the gap between mathematical rigor, on the one hand, and conceptual space, on the other hand.

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Jon Irenicus
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Re: "The Left" and the minority rule in the West

Post by Jon Irenicus » Mon May 14, 2018 9:58 pm

Further into the police state rabbit hole the UK goes...

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William
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Re: "The Left" and the minority rule in the West

Post by William » Mon May 14, 2018 11:03 pm

Clayton wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 6:56 pm
Mapping "isms" is a waste of time. The genesis of ideas is strictly a function of the individual mind. Of course, new ideas spread and the scientific study of the spread of ideas in society is called memetics. Low-dimensional graphs of the space of ideas are useless over-simplifications and never amount to anything more than system-building. I think that AI is going to help us study ideas with a more scientific approach in the future because AI can bridge the gap between mathematical rigor, on the one hand, and conceptual space, on the other hand.
Zoroastrianism and Zoroastrians exist, communism and communists exists, America and Americans, carpentry and carpenters exist, rights and our relationship to them exists, legal orders and names of philosophies exist, cultures and histores exist, biological systems exists, vocabularies exist, interpretation of facts is necessary. Phenomena exists that is sometimes greater than the whole of its part. Reductionist attempts to answer these questions only obfuscate problems. If for no other reason people identify themselves as such, deal with it like that...and try to deal with it in a non "red pill" sense where your superior intellect sees what is the truth "behind" everything* as those poor rubes are "victims of false conscience"

And to get further to the point, my OP qualified that to enter this conversation one could assume any generic axiom that a "left" exists otherwise you are going meta and are going to derail the thread. Fun fact: all topics have parameters in order to be intelligible and productive. If you have an interpretation that is supposed to go "meta" or "deeper" on everything it would probably require a different format in which it could be scrutinized properly.

*I used the word "see" on purpose as this is a concept you understand without further elaboration, yet a certain kind of mind, tenedncy, and ill suited methodology for human affairs that will over allegorize this or over reduction the word to fit with one's own interpretation that won't hold the same scrutiny they give to the analysis of the world they just "debunked"
I have come to feel strongly that the greatest service I can still render to my fellow men would be that I could make the speakers and writers among them thoroughly ashamed ever again to employ the term 'social justice'.
F.A Hayek

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FvS
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Re: "The Left" and the minority rule in the West

Post by FvS » Thu May 17, 2018 6:48 am

1. It makes me wonder how much White guilt, White fear of being labeled (racist, anti-semite, homophobic/transphobic) and pathological altruism comes into play.

https://www.amren.com/features/2012/07/ ... -altruism/

2. I think there's also an element of "perception is reality" going on. In America, the Left controls academia, media, and Hollywood. I've already given my opinion on how this was achieved. Regardless, this allows them to dictate how the average person sees the world.
Physiocrat wrote:I think the minority rule here is quite plausible. It's consistent with Colin Liddell's social media theory of news. Many new news stories originate via social media. But who is mostly on social media such as Twitter? The dysfunctional and unemployed. Everyone else has jobs, spouses and kids to be involved with. Consequently, the social media landscape, and hence culture informing news, emanates for these Leftist SJW types.
This is a good point as well. BLM, Antifa, and all the other various protest groups are probably largely made up of the young, unemployed, and/or students. The Left also benefits from having extremely wealthy financiers like Soros. They seem to be much better organized in terms of protests, boycotts, and social media campaigns. The Right does have the Koch brothers, but I don't think they're very interested in ground level operations.

3. There's also the question of what's the Left's end goal? For America, I believe it's total gun control, a White minority, and a Scandinavian-style social democracy. But would they stop there once they got all they wanted? I'm not too familiar with the demands of Britain's Left, what are they after? What about the state of the Scandinavian social democracies? Do their government's continue to grow in scope? Or are they generally satisfied with their balance of capitalism and socialism?
"Most whites do not have a racial identity, but they would do well to understand what race means for others. They should also ponder the consequences of being the only group for whom such an identity is forbidden and who are permitted no aspirations as a group." - Jared Taylor

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William
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Re: "The Left" and the minority rule in the West

Post by William » Thu May 17, 2018 5:35 pm

FvS wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:48 am
1. It makes me wonder how much White guilt, White fear of being labeled (racist, anti-semite, homophobic/transphobic) and pathological altruism comes into play.

https://www.amren.com/features/2012/07/ ... -altruism/

2. I think there's also an element of "perception is reality" going on. In America, the Left controls academia, media, and Hollywood. I've already given my opinion on how this was achieved. Regardless, this allows them to dictate how the average person sees the world.
Physiocrat wrote:I think the minority rule here is quite plausible. It's consistent with Colin Liddell's social media theory of news. Many new news stories originate via social media. But who is mostly on social media such as Twitter? The dysfunctional and unemployed. Everyone else has jobs, spouses and kids to be involved with. Consequently, the social media landscape, and hence culture informing news, emanates for these Leftist SJW types.
This is a good point as well. BLM, Antifa, and all the other various protest groups are probably largely made up of the young, unemployed, and/or students. The Left also benefits from having extremely wealthy financiers like Soros. They seem to be much better organized in terms of protests, boycotts, and social media campaigns. The Right does have the Koch brothers, but I don't think they're very interested in ground level operations.

3. There's also the question of what's the Left's end goal? For America, I believe it's total gun control, a White minority, and a Scandinavian-style social democracy. But would they stop there once they got all they wanted? I'm not too familiar with the demands of Britain's Left, what are they after? What about the state of the Scandinavian social democracies? Do their government's continue to grow in scope? Or are they generally satisfied with their balance of capitalism and socialism?

3. There's also the question of what's the Left's end goal? For America,


I think from reading some of your posts you are getting stuck on a premise that I highly disagree with. I don't think the "The Left" is a monolithic force, but rather a group of divergent ideologies, cultural and traditional ways of life in the west, and the trifecta of primitive reactions /transcendent yearnings/highly rationalized ways to thinking of complex societies, and institutions that are highly susceptible to the ideologies and/ or cultural /traditional ways of life...or in other words a complex stew of things like any broad phenomena which is best compared to things like being "American", Christian", or any other durable phenomenological force. Thinking of it as a monolithic entity that is goal oriented is going to get you into problems, and is probably one of those things that forces hard line reactionary ideological positions, unproductive dialogue, and unproductive solutions. I think this is part of the problem with people who try to refute left wing politics. I'm wondering that as in Islamic Culture, things in modern times manifest towards a kind of radicalism so too in Western culture the mind clings to these odd left wing ideologies. So again it's like saying there are features of Islam, Xtianity, etc that can but not necessarily lead to certain conclusions due to the nature of the traditions, cultures, and ideas. In this I think "the left" is a broad subset of "the enlightenment west"...so the analogy here would be "Jihadism" and/or "Wahabbism" is a subset of Sunnism which is a subset of Islamic culture.

And that because of those tendencies to cling to those cultures and ideas does it make "normative" politics and culture very difficult to deal with due to the inherent divisive nature of such things. For the "West" and the "Left" I do wonder if it is because some of the critiques that many libertarians are used to of Democracy with special interests and "squeaky wheel getting the grease" kind of thing that leads to "class logic", "identity politics", poor economic policy, a mind that is quick to point to "systemic problems", and a confusion as to what freedom actually is in favor of a more "rationalist" and "nominalist" view of the term.
I have come to feel strongly that the greatest service I can still render to my fellow men would be that I could make the speakers and writers among them thoroughly ashamed ever again to employ the term 'social justice'.
F.A Hayek

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Tom Rogers
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Re: "The Left" and the minority rule in the West

Post by Tom Rogers » Fri May 18, 2018 4:27 pm

William wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:35 pm
in other words a complex stew of things like any broad phenomena which is best compared to things like being "American", Christian", or any other durable phenomenological force. Thinking of it as a monolithic entity that is goal oriented is going to get you into problems, and is probably one of those things that forces hard line reactionary ideological positions, unproductive dialogue, and unproductive solutions. I think this is part of the problem with people who try to refute left wing politics.
I have noticed there is a tendency among the conservative Right to simplify and mislabel aspects of the Left with the aim - conscious or unconscious - of attaching some sort of purposive and intentional agenda to the broad Left. For instance, there is the concept of 'Cultural Marxism', which I consider highly-contentious. The whole notion of 'Social Justice Warriors' is another one: do they even exist? It seems to me that this sort of thing gives the Left too much credit. A lot of what is labelled 'Left' is the result of unconscious, lower case social dynamics - mostly scientific, technological and industrial changes - permeating society and influencing people's lives.

Also, there is the Left and then there is the left. The latter is just a broad social sensibility that is largely urban or metropolitan and has the most influence in cities, large towns, campuses of the academy, certain educated professions, etc. I've heard people say that the state broadcaster here in Britain, the BBC, is left-wing and biased towards the Left, but it seems to me that if it has a bias at all it is towards metropolitan-type mores and attitudes which are incidentally 'socially left', but spending as much time promoting corporate and business propaganda that would be considered 'right-wing'.
William wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:35 pm
I'm wondering that as in Islamic Culture, things in modern times manifest towards a kind of radicalism so too in Western culture the mind clings to these odd left wing ideologies. So again it's like saying there are features of Islam, Xtianity, etc that can but not necessarily lead to certain conclusions due to the nature of the traditions, cultures, and ideas. In this I think "the left" is a broad subset of "the enlightenment west"...so the analogy here would be "Jihadism" and/or "Wahabbism" is a subset of Sunnism which is a subset of Islamic culture.
To be fair, though, this is just a difference of perspective. The particularities of the different 'Islams' are important, but it's still a broadly consistent culture, much like Europe is a multi-ethnic civilisation with vast interior differences, but these different ethnies are broadly similar and mutually- integrable or assimilable. In the same way, we can acknowledge that the Left is not a monolith and not even self-consciously leftist in large parts, but the broad theme is equality, multi-culturalism and diversity, and the trajectory is towards the destruction of Western civilisation.
William wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:35 pm
And that because of those tendencies to cling to those cultures and ideas does it make "normative" politics and culture very difficult to deal with due to the inherent divisive nature of such things. For the "West" and the "Left" I do wonder if it is because some of the critiques that many libertarians are used to of Democracy with special interests and "squeaky wheel getting the grease" kind of thing that leads to "class logic", "identity politics", poor economic policy, a mind that is quick to point to "systemic problems", and a confusion as to what freedom actually is in favor of a more "rationalist" and "nominalist" view of the term.
I think I see your point here, though it's not entirely clear and if I have misunderstood, you may need to elucidate further. Essentially you are saying that libertarians, and probably most educated Westerners, tend to look at Western systems bloodlessly, whereas alien political and politico-religious philosophies are inherently divisive and tribal. This leads to incoherence in the 'educated' Western mind and a sort of self-deception in which the Western intellectual affects to have evolved beyond particularism and as a result lacks the tools to address external intolerance, instead believing it can be integrated within a sum of civic values.

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William
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Re: "The Left" and the minority rule in the West

Post by William » Fri May 18, 2018 7:35 pm

Tom Rogers wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 4:27 pm
William wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:35 pm
in other words a complex stew of things like any broad phenomena which is best compared to things like being "American", Christian", or any other durable phenomenological force. Thinking of it as a monolithic entity that is goal oriented is going to get you into problems, and is probably one of those things that forces hard line reactionary ideological positions, unproductive dialogue, and unproductive solutions. I think this is part of the problem with people who try to refute left wing politics.
I have noticed there is a tendency among the conservative Right to simplify and mislabel aspects of the Left with the aim - conscious or unconscious - of attaching some sort of purposive and intentional agenda to the broad Left. For instance, there is the concept of 'Cultural Marxism', which I consider highly-contentious. The whole notion of 'Social Justice Warriors' is another one: do they even exist? It seems to me that this sort of thing gives the Left too much credit. A lot of what is labelled 'Left' is the result of unconscious, lower case social dynamics - mostly scientific, technological and industrial changes - permeating society and influencing people's lives.

Also, there is the Left and then there is the left. The latter is just a broad social sensibility that is largely urban or metropolitan and has the most influence in cities, large towns, campuses of the academy, certain educated professions, etc. I've heard people say that the state broadcaster here in Britain, the BBC, is left-wing and biased towards the Left, but it seems to me that if it has a bias at all it is towards metropolitan-type mores and attitudes which are incidentally 'socially left', but spending as much time promoting corporate and business propaganda that would be considered 'right-wing'.
William wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:35 pm
I'm wondering that as in Islamic Culture, things in modern times manifest towards a kind of radicalism so too in Western culture the mind clings to these odd left wing ideologies. So again it's like saying there are features of Islam, Xtianity, etc that can but not necessarily lead to certain conclusions due to the nature of the traditions, cultures, and ideas. In this I think "the left" is a broad subset of "the enlightenment west"...so the analogy here would be "Jihadism" and/or "Wahabbism" is a subset of Sunnism which is a subset of Islamic culture.
To be fair, though, this is just a difference of perspective. The particularities of the different 'Islams' are important, but it's still a broadly consistent culture, much like Europe is a multi-ethnic civilisation with vast interior differences, but these different ethnies are broadly similar and mutually- integrable or assimilable. In the same way, we can acknowledge that the Left is not a monolith and not even self-consciously leftist in large parts, but the broad theme is equality, multi-culturalism and diversity, and the trajectory is towards the destruction of Western civilisation.
William wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:35 pm
And that because of those tendencies to cling to those cultures and ideas does it make "normative" politics and culture very difficult to deal with due to the inherent divisive nature of such things. For the "West" and the "Left" I do wonder if it is because some of the critiques that many libertarians are used to of Democracy with special interests and "squeaky wheel getting the grease" kind of thing that leads to "class logic", "identity politics", poor economic policy, a mind that is quick to point to "systemic problems", and a confusion as to what freedom actually is in favor of a more "rationalist" and "nominalist" view of the term.
I think I see your point here, though it's not entirely clear and if I have misunderstood, you may need to elucidate further. Essentially you are saying that libertarians, and probably most educated Westerners, tend to look at Western systems bloodlessly, whereas alien political and politico-religious philosophies are inherently divisive and tribal. This leads to incoherence in the 'educated' Western mind and a sort of self-deception in which the Western intellectual affects to have evolved beyond particularism and as a result lacks the tools to address external intolerance, instead believing it can be integrated within a sum of civic values.

1) In regards to your third point, I think I'm kind of saying that but almost with a different emphasis. I'm saying norms exist and things like law enforcement exist and that's a good thing. In this way an uncontroversial opinion should be things like Western law enforcement and philosophy is ultimately incompatible with serial rapists, some dude beating a little old lady to a bloody pulp for lols, and DAESH philosophy and action. If the western educated are thinking of this as "bloodless" or dealing with it in its opposite "justice =terror=utopia" mindset, as tends to be the case, they are tragically very very wrong... and part of this radicalization hypothesis I'm thinking about.

2) As for your SJW thought, I do think it's a "thing", but a soft "thing". It's not an absolute philosophy with an agenda. But it does have tendencies towards certain philosophies, certain agendas, and certain logics, as well as being just a cultural phenomena that is stronger in certain areas and institutions than others. So I think we broadly agree on that. But as with "the left" I have no problem thinking of it as a kind of phenomenalogical force.
I have come to feel strongly that the greatest service I can still render to my fellow men would be that I could make the speakers and writers among them thoroughly ashamed ever again to employ the term 'social justice'.
F.A Hayek

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Re: "The Left" and the minority rule in the West

Post by FvS » Sat May 19, 2018 8:23 pm

William wrote:I think from reading some of your posts you are getting stuck on a premise that I highly disagree with. I don't think the "The Left" is a monolithic force, but rather a group of divergent ideologies, cultural and traditional ways of life in the west, and the trifecta of primitive reactions /transcendent yearnings/highly rationalized ways to thinking of complex societies, and institutions that are highly susceptible to the ideologies and/ or cultural /traditional ways of life...or in other words a complex stew of things like any broad phenomena which is best compared to things like being "American", Christian", or any other durable phenomenological force. Thinking of it as a monolithic entity that is goal oriented is going to get you into problems, and is probably one of those things that forces hard line reactionary ideological positions, unproductive dialogue, and unproductive solutions. I think this is part of the problem with people who try to refute left wing politics. I'm wondering that as in Islamic Culture, things in modern times manifest towards a kind of radicalism so too in Western culture the mind clings to these odd left wing ideologies. So again it's like saying there are features of Islam, Xtianity, etc that can but not necessarily lead to certain conclusions due to the nature of the traditions, cultures, and ideas. In this I think "the left" is a broad subset of "the enlightenment west"...so the analogy here would be "Jihadism" and/or "Wahabbism" is a subset of Sunnism which is a subset of Islamic culture.

And that because of those tendencies to cling to those cultures and ideas does it make "normative" politics and culture very difficult to deal with due to the inherent divisive nature of such things. For the "West" and the "Left" I do wonder if it is because some of the critiques that many libertarians are used to of Democracy with special interests and "squeaky wheel getting the grease" kind of thing that leads to "class logic", "identity politics", poor economic policy, a mind that is quick to point to "systemic problems", and a confusion as to what freedom actually is in favor of a more "rationalist" and "nominalist" view of the term.
I just assumed that when talking of "the Left" it was understood to mean "a large majority of those who call themselves Leftists", not necessarily every single Leftist. I think it can be said that many on the Left share certain ideals and political viewpoints. With that in mind, which item(s) that I listed (total gun control, White minority, Scandinavian social democracy) do you think wouldn't be seen as favorable by a majority of those on the Left? With regard to Wahabbism, there is a scriptural basis for everything they do that cannot be separated from the rest of Islam. It is just conveniently ignored by many of the more non-violent Muslims. Which begs the question, is there an essential communist (Leftist Wahabbism) aspect of "the enlightment west" that cannot be separated from the whole?
"Most whites do not have a racial identity, but they would do well to understand what race means for others. They should also ponder the consequences of being the only group for whom such an identity is forbidden and who are permitted no aspirations as a group." - Jared Taylor

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Re: "The Left" and the minority rule in the West

Post by Jon Irenicus » Sat May 19, 2018 9:58 pm

SJWs and cultural marxism are very much realities. They're highly visible on university campuses but also in their influence on corporates and the media, which they supply with personnel. I don't think this is merely a case of the leftish tendencies of some urban metropolises; they're too specific in nature, in their assertions and beliefs, and also their vocabulary, for it to be considered a more organic phenomenon. It may be true, though, that outside of academia, there is a less explicit recognition of what the beliefs are usually termed and merely passive absorption of the ideas. It doesn't matter; nonsense like "cultural appropriation" or "toxic masculinity" is ubiquitous on the internet and, in turn, social media is increasingly being used to pile on pressure, particularly on smaller business, to toe the SJW line. They're a minority of individuals, but they have been able to shape discourse effectively and turn the modern left's attention to identity politics, albeit I am of the view that it is eventually going to blow up in their faces, since they're trying to wield it against the majority group.

They're useful idiots for a multitude of other groups, including those Marxists who would like to see the destruction of the capitalist system, as they see it embodied in the US and other western nations.
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Re: "The Left" and the minority rule in the West

Post by Physiocrat » Mon May 21, 2018 9:00 am

FvS wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:48 am
3. There's also the question of what's the Left's end goal? For America, I believe it's total gun control, a White minority, and a Scandinavian-style social democracy. But would they stop there once they got all they wanted? I'm not too familiar with the demands of Britain's Left, what are they after? What about the state of the Scandinavian social democracies? Do their government's continue to grow in scope? Or are they generally satisfied with their balance of capitalism and socialism?
Well broadly speaking in the UK, like in the US, you have the cultural and economic left. The one's with currently the most political power are the corporatist Hilary types, culturally leftwards, but want public-private partnerships. Essentially they want things to broadly stay the same but uplift ethnic minorities and women on the career ladder by affirmative action etc. They want open borders and wish to repress free speech as seen by the Count Dankula case. This is the establishment left. They also want increased control over family life and schooling to encourage "social cohesion". These types are generally pro-war and the security state. Remember our guns were pretty much taken off us in the 80s.

You then have the hard cultural left who the corporatist left signal and help but are much more radical about egalitarianism. Essentially the SJW gender fluid types. They don't just want open borders but no borders at all. They also tend to want social engineering at the family level to prevent "patriarchy and gender stereotypes". They are less concerned with terrorism and aren't as authoritarian as the mainstream left at least in that sense.

The economics left is gaining some traction at the moment but it is a smallish section of the population. It's immediate goals would be railway nationalisation and the removal of any public-private partnerships in schools and the NHS. Essentially we need more Stalinism less, Leninism. Following that they would re-nationalise the utility companies and postal service (only recently privatised). Oh they'd also allow sympathy strikes and allow flying pickets.

Number wise the mainstream left is the biggest but there's a growth of the hard cultural left and economic left with Corbyn. Their saving grace is they tend to be more anti-war than the mainstream left.
The atoms tell the atoms so, for I never was or will but atoms forevermore be.

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